Naim Statement + Magico M

momei

This thread arose from another one in which I was prompted to pay a visit to the importer, Radar, to take a serious listen to Naim Statement driving Magico’s project M speakers. This is the original thread:
http://www.hiendy.com/hififorum/ ... page%3D1&page=1
In order to give the Naim and Magico combo a fair hearing, I need to select tracks that address the issues I picked up during the 2014 HiFi Show and listen to these tracks carefully during the waiting period prior to the audition.
I looked up the Show report and summarized the nits based on which I should choose the tracks to be brought over to Radar.
As I mentioned in the other thread, I would use mainly LPs to focus on fine sound so as to avoid CDs jeopardizing the articulation. I still maintain CAS is the best of the three formats based on my experience but proposing to slot in my portable gear to Radar’s setup would be asking too much. Settle on the second best then.
Here is a summary of the nits I found during the Show as extracted from the report previously posted in this web.  

Pre demo time tracks
*solo guitar, disappointing
*sound of high-hat and cymbal of drum set not prominent enough, same shortcoming with the bass
*female voice not focussed; guitar was diffused and could not be located as to where it was.
Tracks used in demo session
*female voice had some sort of rim round it and not focussed enough
*Beethoven 5th piano concerto: piano sound was recessed, clang to the right (should be slightly to the left in concert); whilst its sound was crisp and vivid. But the orchestra came from the back wall thus sound stage was shallow and not 3D enough. Strings sounded bundled and strained (compressed). French horns were diffused without proper localization.
*Synthesizer: very good impact but bass was boomy; voice of mezzo-soprano was a little strained when singing high and loud.

It can be seen that guitar sound was particularly problematic; followed by voices, drum set cymbals and layering of different sections of the orchestra. No violin track was used in the Show and the piano sound as demonstrated was crisp and vivid. So I wouldn’t bring over a violin track (I have two Water Lilly LPs of violin solo pieces) because in any case an acoustic guitar track would be a good indicator of how a violin would sound in the same audio setup. Nor would I bring over one of the several direct to discs LPs of solo piano because the piano sound at the Show was already crisp and vivid. I therefore omit albums of these two instruments and also will listen only to part of the tracks during the audition so as to cut short the length of time imposed on the Radar personnel.  Below are the tracks I intend to use, selected on the basis that they being commonly owned such that readers here as well as Radar people may play the tracks again in their audio systems and compare the reproduced sound that they hear, with the notes that I jot down. I will go through the albums/tracks one by one.

momei

*I chose this Sheffield Lab direct to disc album from amongst a handful of other DD ones because many audiophiles have it; featuring Michael Newman, playing a Thomas Humphrey guitar with Augustine strings. The track is Fandanguillo. I still remember when an Absolute Sound reviewer wrote about this piece, he described the particular sound of several chords in the way they were played. I thought he was wrong because the chords sounded like chimes to me. At the time I had never seen any guitarist play this piece, so I did not refute him. Many years later the DVD of 村治隹織 confirmed my view. The name of this type of playing is tambura—the left hand fingers pressing the chords whilst those of the right hand thump the strings on the bridge.
Usually a high end acoustic guitar is made with rosewood for bottom and sides, and spruce wood for the top so as to enhance resonation. The hole in the top is where notes played on the guitar come out. So an acoustic guitar recording when reproduced correctly should have notes coming out from there, that is, from a focussed point source, several inches in diameter. I have heard demos with the guitar having the size of a banquet round table! Each note played should be crisp and distinct, and resonance of the strings should be perceivable. As to timbre, there is no standard because different makes (brands) and different strings do not sound the same. But one should be able to discern whether it is correctly reproduced or not—by hearing if there is lack of metallic glare, edginess and coarseness. In my view no reviewer should be able to  say the recorded timbre being correct because even if the make and model of instrument and strings are provided in the album notes, he/she would not be familiar with that particular timbre unless he/she plays the same instrument and strings.
I say this because an accomplished guitarist and singer, for example, Eric Clapton, switches between different guitars to suit different songs. The Doug MacLeod album produced by Reference Recordings also lists different guitars used for recording the songs. And performers have their own preferences, for example, Romeros use their own brand. Prior to using CAS I was like a frog in the bottom of a well because in Hong Kong we only saw Martin, Taylor, Gibson and occasionally Guild guitars. And I was very impressed with the nice sound of the guitars used by Lobos when they performed in Hong Kong, not knowing what the make was. CAS exposed me to acoustic guitars in America such as Olson, Froggy Bottom, Langejans as well as Laurie Williams in Australia, selling for HK$150K to 250K.
If the guitar image sways occasionally, that means dispersion of the speaker drivers are incoherent and/or crossovers are below par.

momei

momei 發表於 2015-5-3 15:53
*I chose this Sheffield Lab direct to disc album from amongst a handful of other DD ones because man ...

* The second issue has to do with drum set cymbals, high-hats etc. An appropriate referee for finding out what went wrong in the Show is the Sheffield direct to disc Drum Record. I use the flip side, featuring Ron Tutt who had been drummer for Elvis Presley for many years. What I will observe are: kick drum impact and transients, the spread of different cymbals across the sound stage, the tonal differences between high-hats and cymbals and those between different toms; transients of the snare drum and rim shots. Transients should have fast rise and decay, without overhang. Cymbals should not “stick” to the speaker cabinet, a common problem found in many speakers. The drum set as a whole should be located between the two speakers in 3D. Come to think of it. The span of the drummer’s hands even with the sticks are no longer than 8 ft. But I have heard demo with the span spreading 16 ft—suggesting a giant at play.

xerxeshowie

ThomasLi@FB

Even the store manager of Radar Audio, Patrick Lee, admits Naim Statement and M project are not a good match. Naim Statement has a slightly plain and lean sound and M Project is also plain sounding. It is probably better to use a warm sounding amp to drive M Project.

haha12

ThomasLi@FB 發表於 2015-5-3 20:09
Even the store manager of Radar Audio, Patrick Lee, admits Naim Statement and M project are not a go ...

Patrick 兄可能説得太隱晦了。Naim Statement 到底也是百萬元級器材，估計它須要付出更大的努力去證明自家在這級別爭雄的非凡實力吧。

momei

*Now to address the problems of voice, bass and layering. Again I choose a Sheffield Lab DD album called I’ve Got the Music in Me.Thelma Houston is a great singer and I used to play this album often. The track to be used is Don’t Misunderstand; choosing it  because it is not as loud and overwhelming as the title track thus attention may be concentrated on the issues. Her voice should be focussed, anchored in the centre, with her mouth the size not larger than a lemon. Voice should be smooth and rounded, words rolling forward without any trace of distortion (without sibilance or strain).  As regards the bass, each note should be discernible and followed as to what it is. The piano should have the same traits as mentioned for the bass. Thelma (the singer), the piano, the bass, the brass, the drum as well as the background singers should all be separated and located in appropriate planes. Two subtle sound for finding out the low level resolution of the Naim + Magico combo. One is the synthesizer coming in half way into the track, located at far left rear. The other one is rolling of the cymbal at the end of the track, located behind the left speaker at the rear wall. Will see if the combo has better resolution than what I have at home.

ackcheng

Thanks for writeup Momei. Do you know where I can download the tracks you mentioned? HDTracks?

ackcheng

momei

ackcheng 發表於 2015-5-4 23:32
Thanks for writeup Momei. Do you know where I can download the tracks you mentioned? HDTracks?

ackc ...

Hi Ack,
Please go to
http://sheffieldlab.com

momei

ThomasLi@FB 發表於 2015-5-3 20:09
Even the store manager of Radar Audio, Patrick Lee, admits Naim Statement and M project are not a go ...

Hi Thomas,
I may not understand correctly your concept of “plain” sound. To me it may mean lean, dry or clinical. The opposite to me is fat, bulky and fluffy. Personally I prefer lean and condensed with rich harmonics and details because that is more akin to live sound.
I went to the concert by Mahler Chamber Orchestra Sunday evening, and they had a project called “feel the music”. As an audiophile, I extend the “feel” concept to recordings that evoke “feel” in the listener, moving the emotions. My paramount approach to evaluating an audio system is whether when closing my eyes, I am able to liken the reproduced sound to a recording made in a concert hall, a lounge or studio as the case may be. In short, whether I am able to imagine I were present at the recording session. The closer to live, the better the audio system. Real life is non-ideal and thus I need to diagnose what live attributes the reproduced sound are lacking. So comments I have are usually negative, not intending to put down the system but suggesting what should be improved.  The more such negatives are eliminated, the closer to live sound the audio system will be. And my efforts over the years were to get rid of the negatives, closer to the altar but still only having a distant peep at the holy grail.
In my view, if an audiophile is unable to perceive most if not all the negatives, changing components from time to time may merely put him round in circles. What I mean is changing a component may bring about 5 virtues but at the same time introduce 4 negative attributes. Changing another one later may bring in 4 other virtues but then lose a couple of old virtues and add several new negative ones.

chuck

Thank you for sharing your in-depth auditioning experience on the subject system, it is quite informative which we don't normally find in regular reviews on commercial magazines. The comments you made are unreserved and  extremely worthy for potential buyers to understand more about the two subject products. Your comments also provide a good basis for making a purchasing decision.

However, I am quite curious as to the basis of your comparison, it appears you are comparing the sound quality based on a reference system. So, may I know what your reference system is consisting of?

  

ThomasLi@FB

momei 發表於 2015-5-5 13:58
Hi Thomas,
I may not understand correctly your concept of “plain” sound. To me it may mean lean, ...

I appreciate your passion for music. 小弟自嘆不如。Your desire for real life sound reproduction is always right.

However, my understanding is slightly different. It is like watching a movie in cinema vs going to a theatre for a musical. I am sure you have seen the phantom of the opera. It is available both in movie and in real life musical, which one do you like? I have seen both several times and enjoy them equally, but they are very different.

Going to a concert in City Hall is going to be very different from the music reproduced in our hifi system. They don't need to be identical in order to be equally enjoyable. The aim of mastering a record is to present the music in a enjoyable way, following what a real life concert should be is only one of the considerations.

What I mean by plain is the sound is fairly uncoloured and direct. You can call that monitor like. When I auditioned M Project with Statement, both Patrick and I agreed the sound is fairly plain and lean. This is a matter of personal taste. In the same room two month ago, I have sent some time listened to Q7 driven by top constellation amp. The sound was obviously warmer and tonal. At the end of the day, the most important feature to look for in a system is its resolving power. The tonal balance and texture of the sound can be voiced with cables, spikes/footers and platform, the resolution cannot be enhanced. I find the M Project has the highest resolution in all speakers I listened to. That is the main incentive for my order.

momei

chuck 發表於 2015-5-5 21:16
Thank you for sharing your in-depth auditioning experience on the subject system, it is quite info ...

Hi Chuck,
First, many thanks for appreciating what I said in this thread.
As I am not in any way connected with the audio business nor do I  attempt to obtain benefits from importers by way of invitations to private demo sessions, loans of equipment, special discounts on products etc. I am free to put forward my honest opinion about products that I come across occasionally.
I do not know why, whenever I see importers and advertisers using “hidden readers/users” to blow trumpets exceedingly about their products, I cannot refrain from barging in to pull the wool away from the eyes of possible buyers. Strictly speaking, non of my business.
As you may see from “points” that I have gathered over the years in this web, few readers take note of what I say, let alone follow the very few products that I suggest they should audition. Anyway this does not matter much to me as I am always a lone wolf. I do not join audio clubs and know audiophiles not more than the fingers on one hand.
As regards my system, it is one that I put together: ribbon tweeters, quasi ribbon midrange, panel mid bass, all in multiples plus cone subwoofers, driven simultaneously by multiple amps. I see little point in listing them out because in some way they go against popular audiophile beliefs. I do not want to start a row with all and sundry and also offend importers selling high margin accessories and products that I consider superfluous. Above all, ribbons in the way I use them blow away amps easily (I have 10 dead amps in hand) and I do not want to endanger the pockets of those who unknowingly follow my path.
My family situation does not facilitate audiophiles coming for a listen to this system in my place. But if you like to get a feel of how it sounds, please look up the thread here:
http://www.hiendy.com/hififorum/ ... Rex%2BMk%2BII%2BDAC

A811

" ...At the end of the day, the most important feature to look for in a system is its resolving power. The tonal balance and texture of the sound can be voiced with cables, spikes/footers and platform, the resolution cannot be enhanced. I find the M Project has the highest resolution in all speakers I listened to. That is the main incentive for my order."

Well said! Especially the speaker is at the end of the chain. Transparency, resolution, and coherence are what I would look for. These are Magico's strengths, which, I would suppose are pushed to a new height with the M Pro and Q7 MkII, and hopefully with the S7 soon.

momei

ThomasLi@FB 發表於 2015-5-5 21:41
I appreciate your passion for music. 小弟自嘆不如。Your desire for real life sound reproduction is ...

Hi Thomas,
Thanks for elaborating your preferred sound.
Yes, I watched the Phantom live, but only once in Hong Kong. I do appreciate the difference between watching a stage production live and the same one filmed and shown in the cinema.
I also take your point on attending a live concert and listening to one at home via a hifi system. Both may be enjoyed, in different ways though. It is the differences in enjoyment and the attributes that different people enjoy and prefer that put them apart.
To be honest, when I attend concerts, I often make comparisons with the sound I hear at home and register the shortcomings of my gear. This enables me to spot similar faults in other hifi systems when I listen to them. Few concertgoers take such attitude, I know; they enjoy the occasion and the music as a whole without such sidetracking.
In fact, resolving power is an important trait I look for as you do. If a system, especially the speaker, is no good at that, details, transparency and instrumental separation—hence layering, would all be below par. The live attribute is impaired. I note the project M speakers have the highest resolution you have encountered. I look forward to experiencing that. Direct to disc albums have the highest resolution amongst LPs and they should give the M speakers a fair deal. I noted they did not increase in distortion in same proportion as the volume was turned up and fortunately I had collected some 40 or 50 of them when they were in vogue.

diamondblack

momei 發表於 2015-5-6 07:22
Hi Thomas,
Thanks for elaborating your preferred sound.
Yes, I watched the Phantom live, but only  ...

momei,

In my opinion that is both right, and wrong. Right in the sense that live performances are genuine references. Wrong in the sense that every concert hall has different acoustics and give its distingush sound and effect, the so-called "live" can be very different across different concert halls even for the same orchestra and the same conductor. Also recording comes into the picture. One of the very important purposes of the whole recording, mixing and mastering process is to make as many people to enjoy the recorded performance possible. For the mass of the audiences, only a few audiophiles can afford a system that possesses very high degree to reproduce a quality close to the live performance, many just play them back using portable players, mini Hifi, or packaged AV systems. And the mixing and mastering is more to serve that mass, to tune the recordings so that it's more friendly to lesser systems. For example, you can never have an "accurate" presentation of drums (timpani, bass drum), that's has a lot to do with the adjustments made during mastering.

momei

diamondblack 發表於 2015-5-6 07:50
momei,

In my opinion that is both right, and wrong. Right in the sense that live performances are ...

Diamondblack,
You are right regarding concert hall acoustics and mastering to suit the masses.
I am mindful and have experienced that sitting in the same hall in different seats listening to the same orchestra produces a different sound. So I always squat in the centre of the front three rows be that a hall or small venue. So the sound of my system is very forward to mimic such encounters that some people dislike.
As I mentioned in posts above, I attempt to imagine whether I am able to fool myself of sitting in the recording venue close to the performers. If the recording passes this test I consider it good. This is my own personal preference, of course; and to some extent, a reference that I may repeatedly use. Dispensing with that, what else to latch onto with so much variations to choose from?
Other audiophiles have their own preferences, no doubt, and they have their own yardsticks for listening. If such yardsticks sway from time to time or influenced by changing opinions of fellow audiophiles they may be going round in circles. That's what I think.

diamondblack

momei 發表於 2015-5-6 08:18
Diamondblack,
You are right regarding concert hall acoustics and mastering to suit the masses.
I  ...

momei,

The yardstick or reference changes from time to time, so as the music genre and presentation also change from time to time. I don't think during the time of Haydn and Mozart the audiences would care much about instrument positioning if they had a recording and playback mechanism, because classical music at those times were social entertainment, just like we go to live singer and band performances in bars and lounges. Nothing serious, more as background music. Our playback demands on Hifi mainly comes from when classical music became high arts during the romantic period (i.e. about 200 years ago) and not until the middle of the romantic period symphonies which require large scale orchestra and a conductor to perform. And for classical music itself, the modern classical music retreats to smaller scale music, more solo, ensemble and chamber pieces, with new trend of harmonics (or lack of harmonics indeed), requires less space and different room acoustics. And these require new tuning of and presentation from the playback equipment to suit. Not to say pop music which a lot are a combination of synthetic sounds which have different demands to mastering and playback.

momei

diamondblack 發表於 2015-5-6 10:03
momei,

The yardstick or reference changes from time to time, so as the music genre and presentati ...

Hi Diamondblack,
Thanks for raising various points.
Music, as well as architecture, paintings, clothes, hairstyle all change over time.
Now we don’t have the pigtail our great grandfathers had during the late Qing dynasty, nor the women 紥腳。
As regards music and instruments there were viola la gamba family of string instruments during renaissance and baroque periods. 7 strings as opposed to the current 4 for violas and cellos. The sound is much richer and has more details. Individual tracks are available in HdTracks. As long as we know the recorded music is played by this type of instruments,  we would expect the audio system to render their correct characteristics and not those of current 4 stringed types.
The same goes for clavier. One is able to see from pictures that the clavier used by Beethoven is different from the modern piano. Well, have a listen in HdTracks. Much richer in harmonics and less impact than the modern one. What I am saying is that as long as we know the source, we would expect the audio system to give us the appropriate sound.
Mozart and Hayden symphonies were written for small orchestras at the time, as were those by Beethoven in early 1800’s. The 2L album that I spoke with Thomas in the “combat” thread was recorded with 23 string players. So we would expect the sound to come from the stage between the two speakers, not side wall to side wall. Beethoven 5th and 9th. The recordings in the market use large orchestras and the 9th, performed with 100 singers as well. Do we question Karajan and the Berlin Phil of not following the size called for when these works were premiered during Beethoven’s lifetime? When replaying recordings of these works, we may expect the soundstage to stretch from side wall to side wall and with a depth spanning from the front of the speakers to the rear wall.
Concerts may well be social occasions. When world class artists are invited to perform in Hong Kong, many attending see the occasion as a social gathering, having drinks in the foyer, before the concert and during intermission, or going round passages in the auditorium to “see and be seen” .
Yes, hifi equipment below hi end should not be expected to excel in all sorts of music genre: for example, the Quad electrostatics being so good at reproducing medium to small classical music, are unable to render the Beethoven 9th to concert sound level. To overcome such limitations, Mark Levinson put together two of them, one on top of the other, to be supplemented by Decca ribbons and Hartley woofers. And the Quads are unsuitable for playing heavy metal songs either. But at the price levels charged by Naim Statement, Magico M and the like, they should well give us much more and a broader range of music, than the hifi systems in most homes.

momei

The fourth LP I will bring over is the Harry Belafonte at Carnegie Hall album that I recommended to Thomas in these pages. I choose this in order to have a second test on voice, this time male voice, as well as soundstage size and presence. Will also bring along the CD version so as to see how the digital front end as used in the Radar showroom compares with the LP.
As with the Thelma LP mentioned above, the voice should have no sibilance and no strain, but this time the mouth size may be larger, though better not to overdo a grape fruit, because the volume will be turned louder for the purpose of assessing the soundstage size and the audience applause. To save time, I will start from a little after 7 minutes when Belafonte asked Bob the conductor to face the audience. Several are his spoken passages and this enables to assess easily how lifelike the voice rendition is. The double bass notes may be followed throughout; and the acoustic guitar notes are barely heard after the singer’s brief talk. Another key is to observe the quality of the audience applause at the end; head count denotes resolving power, and for that matter the cymbal sound hit by the drummer. The applause if mixed correctly (but it was not) should all come from the two sides to accord with the construction of Carnegie Hall and goes up close to the ceiling of the listening room to reveal the audience sitting at the side balconies. The most incorrect rendition is to have the claps and yells coming from the back of the speakers at or close to the rear wall. Incorrect because no seats are there. We need to differentiate this because some auditoriums such as HK Cultural Centre and Beijing 國家大劇院 have audience there.
The listener should have the feel of being present at the concert, sitting amongst the audience.
I remember taking my computer to Aura at Star House, a dealer shop that handled over a dozen audio brands. William Wong was hospitable. The main purpose of my visit was to see whether the M2Tech Vaughan DAC, with the power cord unplugged, thus using the battery in it only, still had enough muscle or not. Speakers were active ones (with power amps inside) called PSB (if I remember the initials correctly). Flying colours: battery drive still provided a large soundstage, side wall to side wall width and a depth of some 8 ft or more, extending from speakers to back wall. It is a pity the shop had folded some time ago and I guess because potential buyers used the shop to listen to different combinations but bought them cheaper from outlets that did not carry cost of shop space or attendants.