W4S Music Server 2TB (MS-2) - Music Server

chiuching

有冇師兄已經出左手呢?

tanjongaru

It would be more interesting if the internal hard drive can be replaced by SSD.   

billy997

I really think it is quite expensive. For the ripping and internal HDD, they are not the selling point unless the one who is dummy in setting up NAS and only want to put all his CD to the server. If just for this user friendliness (I enjoy more with NAS steaming myself), 20k is overpriced.

If u are telling me it sounds good to justify the premium, as we all know CAS the Dac plays the key role but not the transport part. And it comes with HDD spinning in nature, it will need to spend a lot to avid the noise. May be now the 20k making it only at par with NAS + SB? I don't know, but sounds like linn is more competitive.


- 發送自我的 iPhone 大板凳應用

hkborn

billy997 發表於 2012-3-17 19:41
I really think it is quite expensive. For the ripping and internal HDD, they are not the selling poi ...

agreed
ripping-use vortexbox
http://vortexbox.org/content/120-documentation
player : use voyage mpd (free linux open source)
NAS
With a bit of knowledge, this can be done within 5-6k

odysseyhk

Interesting discussion. Just to provide information here to support the discussion.

brkkh, W4S MS-2 is designed as music server with internal hard disk, built-in player output digital signal using I2S, Coaxial and Toslink interfaces, and auto-ripping. The music files in MS-2 can be used by other network streaming players e.g. using DLNA.  The internal hard disks are the only moving part and they are isolated using NoiseGuard™ Technology.

billy997, beside the low noise design, one key feature of W4S MS-2 is I2S interface. I2S is the internal interface of DAC with very low jitter. Directly driving DAC2 using I2S is best. For I2S information, you can find it here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%C2%B2S

billy997, Wyred4Sound has strong experience in mod. I have asked W4S to mod SBT and add I2S output. A working prototype is done. For those who like NAS + SBT will love it.  As it took longer time to fine tune W4S MS-2, there is delay with the SBT I2S mod work and I hope it can be released soon. Please note that MS-2 is better sound than NAS + SBT even after the I2S Mod.  Also, SBT only support up to 24/96.

hkborn, I hope your showroom business running well. You are right that DIY may save cost. The results depend on experience, the use and mod of circuits you can find. Some DIY projects are on-going mod and switching of components which may end up spending more. But it can be part of fun as well.

bfour

--MS-2 is better sound than NAS + SBT even after the I2S Mod

How do you know that ? I'm interested as I'm using SBT with soundchek 3.0, satisfied with the result. Also, is switching or linear power supply is used for MS-2 ? How many volt and A ?

hkborn

odysseyhk hing,

music server is nothing new
Bryston BDP-1 has been in market for quite a long time now

http://bryston.com/products/digital_audio/BDP-1.html

Basically, all these product use open source voyage mpd(developed by a hong kong guy Punky Tse) and ripping technology using Vortexbox.
Difficult for DIY? not really
With an used computer, one can rip CD the same as these products.
With voyage mpd, one can play good music in a fanless computer. SQ is better than squeezebox touch.
How much? less than $2000, build a new pc for ripping? another 3-4k or order from vortexbox
http://astore.amazon.com/vort-20/detail/B002QEBMB4
voyage mpd is an open source project, while it's free for public to use, commercial users should donate a bit to the project, but it seems to me not the case.
The benefit of having storage separate from music player is cleaner sound due to less unnecessary processing procedure than all in one unit.
Also, price a bit too unreasonable in my humble opinion as with billy997 hing

odysseyhk

bfour, please note that in my post, I'm very carefully saying that it is better than our own I2S mod. Please note that W4S is experienced in mod business. We did not compare to your combination of SBT + Soundchek 3.0 and I would not post comment on other products I did not try.  I'm asking for more technical info from W4S regarding MS-2 and will share it with all.

hkborn, you said "music sever is nothing new". That is true but I do not agree on your argument which basically destroy any value of hard working designers and engineers bring a quality products to the customers.  

hkborn, you can say "amp is nothing new", "CD Transport is nothing new", "speakers, power cords, interconnect cables are nothing new" either. I respect DIY and also appreciate companies making good products. Appreciate you are giving respect to product maker either. Please note that we have been using very low cost netbook as digital source for years and we truly believe in offering different choices for individuals.  I have no intend to defense on price for a particular product and its better just let the market decide.

hkborn also said "The benefit of having storage separate from music player is cleaner sound due to less unnecessary processing procedure than all in one unit.".  Well, comparing network player vs music server is not new. I don't think there is a definite answer, it subject to implementation and there are pros and cons.  But one thing for sure is that there are "more unnecessary processing procedure" if you are accessing streaming audio over network compare to accessing music files directly and locally. So what you quoted is actually disadvantage of of network player.  The advantage of network player is "no noise cause by moving parts from hard disk".  A good noise isolation circuit or use of SSD can address the issue without using network streaming.  In fact, I like both approaches and I think Squeezebox, Sonos and MS-2 are all good products with different design point giving audiophiles choices with consideration of sound quality, features, ease of use and price.

odysseyhk

billy997 hing, you may consider Vortexbox Appliance which is PC with Vortexbox pre-installed. This way, you don't need to have Linux knowledge to set-up your own music server. You can buy it from Small Green Computer.

http://shop.smallgreencomputer.com/

The interesting point is that they also build C.A.P.S 2.0 which is a few times more expensive.  

hkborn

odysseyhk hing,

Why I said nothing new?
it's because the technology had been used by a number of companies including Bryston BDP-1, more than a year from now.
Also Sonour has developed same product months back
http://www.sonore.us/index1.html
but sonour clearly indicates it uses vortexbox ripping method while some manufacturers just use the open source without giving any reference, not quite respect the original developer.
player+storage in one unit vs standalone player is something people can comment on. take linn d/s for example, they are pioneer in this regard, and they develop their own software, so i gave them high respect n willing to pay a lot more for their originality.
But for a product with so many open source work used, we of course simply use open technology which is free for personal application. For commercial application, we of course need to get the proper licence or at least give a quote.

tanjongaru

odysseyhk 發表於 2012-3-18 21:09
bfour, please note that in my post, I'm very carefully saying that it is better than our own I2S mod ...

odysseyhk
" A good noise isolation circuit or use of SSD can address the issue without using network streaming."
I think what's lacking in the  W4S Music Server 1TB/2TB, or similar music player, is the option to allow end-user connect his own choice of drive thru USB/ESATA to the device and with better  power supply instead of a fixed hard disk.   

I also think it will save a lot of engineering effort to design a good noise isolation circuit if the end user is allowed to change the internal hard drive to SSD, or with the above USB/ESATA external drive option.  

However, I do understand the marketing hype of this.   

odysseyhk

hkborn, I understand your point. Well, people can make their own linux build or buy commercial version from Red Hat, while both are from open sources.  It is a matter you have the skills, experience and time to use the free version.

Licensing open source for commercial use is a way to support open source as well. I think you would agree. Open source allows small companies to compete with large companies who can afford to develop its own propriety products. W4S should be proud of using open source.  So that they can focus on the product design including effort fine-tuning the I2S interface to delivery superior sound quality. The I2S interface is just amazing and there are a few companies already adopting.  W4S is one of the pioneers implemented it.

It is an excellent example how a small company smartly leverage open sources, then focus on its strength in audio circuit design (e.g. innovate in I2S) and challenge the giants. While the giants are re-inventing the wheels building their own propriety streaming software and selling it to people with deep pockets to pay for the brand.  

billy997

odysseyhk 發表於 2012-3-18 21:41
billy997 hing, you may consider Vortexbox Appliance which is PC with Vortexbox pre-installed. This w ...

Thanks for your information. But the NAS solution (e.g., NAS + SBT, NAS+Linn) keeps me happy as of now, having an external music server personally don't see any better value ..e.g. I have to worry about backup without NAS .. one day the media server may come into picture only if it sounds obviously better than the NAS solution ... but it is really difficult to go under that path as we are doing digital source .. music server marked with high price, really hard to convince that it has better sound than other digital source..(different from DAC where it can cost you 50k and really make the difference) .. from my opinion, music server should go for road of user friendlyness, compatiability, low cost, rich functions...

odysseyhk

tanjongaru,

Your comment is well received.  There are people who like SSD, some like external hard disk and some don't like external hard disk and want it to be all-in-one case.  At the moment, it only address all-in-one with built-in harddisk.  Needs to work harder.

hkborn

odysseyhk 發表於 2012-3-18 22:52
hkborn, I understand your point. Well, people can make their own linux build or buy commercial versi ...

odysseyhk hing,

of course i agree commercial licence obtained by open source developer is a way of support. but commercial use without proper acknowledgement from original developer could be a problem. it's too time consuming and the individual developer may not have sufficient resources to take legal action. but as a norm in open source community, commercial user should state the technology they adopt and make contribution to the project. I can't see making no reference to technology adopted on commercial use is a SUPPORT to the open project.

I2S has been adopted by Sonore months back(see the page i quote)not anything innovative. In fact, main characteristics are the same. Many cdp also have i2s connection. It's just a matter of taste.

odysseyhk

Vortexbox logo clearly found in the product screens. I'll feedback to W4S regarding reference to technology they licensed in the web site either.  Open source licensing is mature in US, you don't need to worry.

You would be interested to know Sonore worked with W4S to make sure that their server works well with W4S DAC2 which is one of the few DAC supporting I2S using of HDMI physical interface.  W4S has supported I2S on HDMI physical interface on DAC2 for quite a long time and PS Audio supported the same interface.

It is important to get more players supporting it.  There are some products support I2S output (not that many indeed).  Early adoption using 5pin DIN interface but it was hard to find good digital signal cable for that and I2S would not be successful this way. The adoption of HDMI physical interface will make use of the many good HDMI cable at low cost, this is how small niche player innovate and take the first step include it in DAC2 while there was only one transport supporting it.  And support other manufacturer to adopt.

I2S is not a matter of taste. It is technically superior to SPDIF, USB.  The only constraint is cable length.

wakalaaa

本來幾祈待，但開價兩萬一部music server,
都幾過份，真係想聽下同 win7電腦一樣做到既funti 差幾遠！

mahi

i think we should spare our time in arguing until there's an opportunity to listen to it. i'm a w4s preamp user and from my knowledge it's not a company which overcharges and rips our hard-earn money. on the contrary if you ask local w4s users they would most likely say w4s offers value-for-money products.

if w4s chooses to charge HK20k for something, obviously if not to ruin their reputation they must have done their homework and benchmarked against similar products in market. but again the proof is in the listening and we'll hear to believe.

mahi

i'm supportive of local hifi too, in fact i also own a ys audio preamp. if someone locally can come up with a reliable music server and software and enough technical support (my benchmark is the transporter and squeeze platform so the it's not a high hurdle) i'm more than happy to make the switch.

hkborn

I think commercial application of open source project should state apparently where their core technology comes from.
So many music server around,and use MPD or voyage MPD as core technology.
It's so easy to identify which products are using MPD, Mpod, Mpad, GMPC are applications for MPD.
Some manufacturers develop their own handheld interface, like Aurender, then they can mark a high market price.
The sad thing for open source developer is that commercial application not paying them anything, now that even no mentioning of use of their open source, which is supposed for personal use only.